Hi from SoCal

12-08-2010, 02:38 PM

bill
san clemente, CA
Posts: 3

I am an agnostic who settled on this way of thinking having been both a theist and atheist during my formative years.

So i really do understand that one's personal belief system is simply the result of all one's life experiences to date. Therefore denying someone's belief is tantamount to telling them that their life to date has been a total waste of space. Or similar.

I am somewhat curious why this site has put atheism and agnosticism as one group. As we all know, atheism is faith based, while agnosticism is a more open approach to the meaning of life, using science and logic as its tools of investigation.

But clearly others do not make such a distinction.

12-09-2010, 05:29 AM

Zach F
Denton, TX
Posts: 119

Hi Bill and welcome to the site! I look forward to seeing you around.

I must say that I disagree with the idea that Atheism is faith based. Saying that there is no God until you can prove there is one requires no faith at all. I also feel that atheism is the more scientific approach to the subject as well. The burden of proof lies on the person making the claim. Until then, its not really recognized as being a theory or fact. Its just an idea.

Agnosticism has always seemed like a middle of the road place. Someone who doesn't want to commit to either side. At least that is what it was for me. When I called myself agnostic, I felt like it was a happy medium with my Christian upbringing (of which it was thought I would become a preacher) and realization that none of this makes much sense. I also think this has a lot to do with the individual connotation of the words and not so much the exact definitions.

But do answer your question, they are grouped to reduce clutter on the site and make it more appealing to the eye. We do recognize the difference between the two, but the similarities of the two are enough to merit grouping we thought. The same reason we don't have separate groupings for Catholics, Baptists, Methodists, etc. They are sub topics of their parent group.

Do you think they should be separated? We are always taking suggestions on how to improve the site.

12-10-2010, 12:36 PM

bill
san clemente, CA
Posts: 3

Atheists usually only debate with theists and, in those debates, rightly demanding that the theist prove their claim.

They never realize that when debating with agnostics, suddenly they are required to prove their cast beyond all reasonable doubt, by providing evidence or logic.   Simply stating that the theists have not proven their case is insufficient.

If I tell you that I don't know if fairies exist, or not, and you flatly state that they do not - you need more than your conviction to persuade me that you are right.   It is NOT my job to give any proof of why they might exist, for I have already acknowledged that they might not.

The same applies to deities.   An agnostic and an atheist will both be unconvinced by any argument those of a religious persuasion may offer.   (If their is a deity, it is going to be pretty ticked off when it finds out what mankind has done in its name).

By the most rigorous investigation into the claims of theists, at the end of the day it all boils down to some variation of "if you believe, you will see that believing is correct."   That is what I mean by theism being faith based.

Likewise, when an atheist actually offers evidence, logic or reason for that position, the argument presented is just as empty as those of the theists.   If the evidence, logic or reason was that ironclad, all churches would have shut up shop long ago.

So when you press the atheist with the same sort of rigor as you pressed the theist, you will find that the case eventually reduces itself to something on the lines of "a deity is so improbable, I choose to believe that there is none".   And choosing to believe anything is always an act of faith.

The agnostic is open to be persuaded by either side - indeed, relishes the thought that one day the matter will be resolved. If you get time to visit Agnostics International, you will see just how much fun debate and discussion can be when conducted by free-thinkers.

On the other hand, the two faith based camps seem to spend all their time hurling insults at each other.

12-12-2010, 06:41 AM

Zach F
Denton, TX
Posts: 119

Atheism is the rejection of the belief in a deity. It is the absence of faith. Have fairies, or any evidence of them, ever been found? No. Then as far we know, fairies do not exist. That seems pretty clear cut. If we find a fairy then we know they do exist. There is no leap of faith taken. Saying atheists have faith is like saying 'off' is a television channel.

And while the existence of a deity is improbable, that is not the reason I don't believe one exists. That would be a terrible argument. I feel if you are claiming something, the burden of proof lies on the person making the claim. If I were to say that I had the power to fly, would it take faith to believe that such a thing was untrue? Would you ask for a demonstration before believing me? Or would you think, maybe he does, maybe he doesn't. I guess we will never know since he won't prove it.

04-24-2011, 02:46 PM

di43
Dunedin, FL
Posts: 1

I am a new member- di43. I would like someone to answer a question for me. For many years I have been puzzled by the automatic response of religious people when a loved one dies. "Oh, well you know that she is in heaven now" No, I don't know. Where exactly in the bible (chapter and verse) does it say that when a person "passes on" (as the religious like to say), his or her "soul" goes to heaven immediately upon death? That seems to be what they believe, as they are always imagining their loved ones looking down on them. I thought the bible said that on the last day Jesus would return to "raise the quick and the dead" I am a long time atheist, so my reason for asking is to give an answer to such a ridiculous assertion. Since religious people base all their arguments on what is said in the bible, it must be in there somewhere, right? Or is that just one more "metaphor"? Any religious acquaintances always say "Well, some scholars think----" I don't want to know what people THINK! I want to know where the bible says this in black and white!

04-25-2011, 08:50 PM

SOULED-OUT
Lagrange, GA
Posts: 3

di43, I will make an attempt to answer your question. We as Believers have good reason to believe that our afterlife experience begins the very minute of death. We believe the minute we die and are away from the body, we are with Jesus in the afterlife. I hope that the following scriptures from the New Testament sheds some light on this issue for you.
2 Corinthians 5:6-8
Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. We live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
Luke 23:39-43
One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!" But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong." Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

07-15-2011, 11:55 AM

Miguel Lahunken
Etna, ME
Posts: 18

Do you believe in light? You couldn't read this without light. In 1John1:5 it says, "God is light". Science knows that light is energy. God is energy. There are two things in the universe: energy and "information". and information is the conformation of energy.

We got consciousness in finite time. In our brains, consciousness was caused by the capacitance and ectropy of the arising reticular formation of the medulla oblongata, which is simply the interference of information by virtue of the inevitability of orthogonality.

The First Law of Thermodynamics is, "Energy can neither be created nor destroyed". Energy is eternal. Certainly, in eternity it is inevitable that information would cause energy (God) to be conscious. Would you think that God doens't want boredom. That is why He doesn't interfere with free will.

To answer another question, information can be created and destroyed. That is what the Second Law of Thermodynamics says when it says, "In the universe, entropy always increases". The entropy of the universe, at any one time, is the proportion of photons to nucleons, that is, entropy is the extent of polarity cancellation.

Information, the conformation of energy? Take a cloth sheet. It represents energy. Wrinkle the sheet. The wrinkles represent information. Pull the sheet out straight, and, "fump", the wrinkles become nonexistent. They "perish". Look in "Roget's Thesaurus", perishing is synonymous with becoming nonexistent.

Such a universal sheet exists on the eighth, ninth, and tenth dimensions; and, it is called the Ricci Curvature. Where there is no Ricci Curvature there is no matter. It says in the Bible, "Only He (God) is immortal"; and, "The soul that sinneth shall die". Crooks have profited on the fear of Plato's immortality of the soul.

There is the "aioniu amartematos", the "aeon of failure", mistranslated into English, "eternal damnation". A Greek professor told me that an "aeon" is only a hundred years. Spirit is matter in bent timespace, and, matter is spirit in flat timespace. Our soul is that portion of our being in the fifth dimensional spheres of bent timespace. Theoretically, -n+n=0, the soul is still perishable information.

A Jehovah's Witness told me, "Eternal punishment is infinite injustice. God in not unjust". By the way, if Jehovah's Witnesses get on your case, just tell them that you want to become nonexistent; and then, they will immediately go away. I am only 99.9990 % sure I can someday become nonexistent.

11-12-2011, 12:26 PM

Happy2Burn
Glendale, CA
Posts: 4

Hi Bill, I just joined and live in the LA area. Maybe you already got some flack for this, but your definitions and some of the definitions in some replies to you aren't fair. Atheism is simply a lack of belief. One either believes a god exists or existed or one does not. If you do not 'believe' (not know. None of us know) in a god, you are an atheist. There is absolutely no faith in that at all. Faith is believing something is true because you want it to be/are hopefull. I don't know of anyone who wants there to be no god. I don't see why anyone would considering there is no 'real' influence that suggests whether that is good or bad for us.
Also, Agnosticism is not anything more than the admission that you do not know whether a god exists or not. You can be, and I bet that most atheists are, agnostic as well. For one to claim they know a god doesn't exist is almost (not quite) as foolish as to 'know' that it does. You could be an atheist, and agnostic, and still even be hopeful that god exists. This idea that it is an approach of any kind, or that it uses science or anything is false. It is just an admission to something that is true for every human everywhere.

'I don't know.'

11-12-2011, 12:32 PM

Happy2Burn
Glendale, CA
Posts: 4

And what makes you think that his idea of paradise is exactly or even similar to yours? This is what I don't understand. The definitions of heaven and hell are entirely subjective. One christian may say it's like this and another says it's like that. Are you saying it can be whatever you want it to be? If so, where does it say that?