CHRISTIANS

2010-05-06 02:50 PM

PASHA
Seattle, WA
Posts: 96

Christians

To be or not to be, that is the Question, posed in a play.
To be a Christian or to not be, is what I believe is wrong with todays CHRISTIANITY>

Many say they are CHRISTIAN but then they prove that they aren't by the way they
treat their neighbor.
They claim they LOVE GOD, and then they kill their neighbor at the behest of another neighbor.
They claim that they sufer as Jesus did, but then they set forth to persecute and prosecute
others not of their MINDSET- not of their CULT/GROUP.

How can you define who is a REAL CHRISTIAN from the also RANS?
MARK 16,17+18
THOSE WHO HAVE BELIEVED SHALL BE EQUIPED TO DO THE FOLLOWING
and not by the science and schemes of men and their associations/affiliations.
How many of you believe that you are qualified to be called a CHRISTIAN?
How many of us really are just WANNABIES who have as yet not qualified for that
BLACK BELT POSITION in this calling?

Many are they that say, we have believed. Believed WHOM and WHAT?
if you have truly believed why is it that so many are decieved to not being able to live
what Mark 16,17+18 records?

So what have you believed and WHY?

pax

2010-05-07 07:26 AM

MrWonder
Medium City, TX
Posts: 226

What I don't believe is a literal interpretation of Mark 16. I don't think Christ is talking about scorpions and snakes literally, but is speaking of powers and principalities of wickedness.

What I do believe is a Christian who has an ear to hear what the Spirit has to say can do ANYTHING the Spirit of God tells him to do - ANYTHING.

Lastly, the history of the Bible took place over a time frame of 4000 years. Because there are miracles recorded in Scripture does not mean it was an every day occurrence. There are only about 8 or so recorded instances of people being raised from the dead in Scripture - it doesn't happen every day and it doesn't happen because WE will it to happen - it happens when God chooses and when we have that ear to hear Him command us to go raise a certain person. If it isn't God telling us, IT WON'T HAPPEN.

MrWonder

2010-05-07 10:33 AM

Zach F
Denton, TX
Posts: 119

I use to be a Christian. I was raised Southern Babtist and read the Bible everyday. By the time I was 12, my mother was cconvinced that I was going to become a preacher. However, the more I read the Bible, the more I felt turned away from it. All the inconsistencies and contradictions. As of now I'm an Athiest and history major. I want to find the truth, I actively seek it out. I love to discuss new and old ideas and I will gladly become Christian again and admit I was wrong when proof of God is found.

2010-05-07 10:39 AM

MrWonder
Medium City, TX
Posts: 226

Hi Zach,

I hear what you're saying, but there is no such thing as "used to be a Christian". You may have once believed in the Christian religion and now you don't, but if you are not a Christian now, you have never been one.

To be a Christian, one has to be reborn of the Holy Spirit. That is a one-way transformation - it cannot be reversed.

I appreciate your good attitude and your willingness to converse. I also appreciate the fact you are a history major. Have you ever considered that when written, the 66 books that comprise the Bible were about 1/3 predictive prophecy, some of which has been fulfilled and some of which is yet to be fulfilled? My thought is that fulfilled prophecy vindicates the Bible, and no religion's "holy books" on earth can make that same claim truthfully.

As an educated man, I am sure you will agree you do not know everything, or even a great part of everything. Only God can possibly know everything. Since you (nor I)know EVERYTHING, then we cannot categorically state there is no God, since to state that, we must know everything there is to know. You are more correctly an agnostic, wouldn't you agree?

MrWonder

2010-05-07 11:02 AM

Zach F
Denton, TX
Posts: 119

Hi MrWonder,

I would agree. Agnostic would be a more accurate description. I have been asked so many times what the difference between Agnostic and Athiest is that I have gotten into the habit of just saying athiest. It is probably a habit i should break.

I will gladly admit that I do not know everything, not even close. I'm glad to see you and welcome you to the site. You may be right, maybe I was never Christian at all. I was a believer but not a member. I've never thought of it that way. It will be a interesting thing to think about.

My Mother takes the arguement in the other direction. I will never stop being a Christian since I have already devoted myself to God and invited Jesus into my heart. She argues that I'm just lost right now and will find my way back.

2010-05-07 11:12 AM

MrWonder
Medium City, TX
Posts: 226

Hi Zach,

Thank God for mothers! I hope she is right that you will find your way back. In fact, I rather do think she is right that you will find faith eventually, although I have no way to personally know if you were ever converted or not in the past - only God knows that, but if you were, then I am sure you will return because Christ said He never loses one of His own. He had that way before the Army did!

I think many people have a "religious experience" at one time or other (maybe several times) in their lives, yet there was nothing supernatural that happened. They only gave mental agreement to the facts they heard but were never converted by an act of the Spirit of God. The parable of the sower that Christ told gives examples of these who heard the Gospel and were excited about it for a time, but yet it never came to fruition in their lives. In fact, 3/4 of the people in the parable who had that "religious experience" ended up not being genuine believers at all.

You have a really good attitude and I appreciate that. Thank you for welcoming me to the site. I like it here so far, and I look forward to friendly and respectful conversations with all here who are interested, because the Bible is my favorite subject.

MrWonder

2010-05-07 11:20 AM

ChristyR
Denton, TX
Posts: 197

This is an interesting conversation.

I am in a very similar situation as Zach on this topic. I was also raised Baptist, and I am now a non-believer.

I call myself atheist, even though I'll admit that I will never be able to say without a doubt that there is no God. I choose to say atheist over agnostic because the connotation of each word is very different. To me, agnostic implies that you are on the fence about what you believe. You accept the fact that you will never know, and you are okay with that. Atheism, however, tends to give the impression that you have made the decision to not believe in a higher power.... despite the fact that you are not all knowing, and you cannot rule out the possibility of a higher power with absolute certainty.

Again, this isn't based on the definition of the word by Webster’s standards.... just what it means to me.

.... The meaning of these words have changed dramatically to me over the years. I remember vividly the stigma that I attached to the word Atheist back when I called myself a Christian. I couldn't, for the life of me, understand how anyone could NOT believe. And because I didn't understand it, I didn't like it.

It's amusing to me now.....

2010-05-07 11:41 AM

MrWonder
Medium City, TX
Posts: 226

Hi Christy,

I believe God grants you the right to not believe, so I certainly respect that right.

You wrote, "Atheism, however, tends to give the impression that you have made the decision to not believe in a higher power.... despite the fact that you are not all knowing, and you cannot rule out the possibility of a higher power with absolute certainty."

I can accept your definition. If you read your quote, would you not agree that to make such a decision to not believe knowing "you cannot rule out the possibility of a higher power with absolute certainty" is not a well-thought out or wise position? Isn't it more keeping with academic standards to keep an open mind on a subject until the evidence is something akin to overwhelming, at least to our own mind? Isn't that more intellectually honest?

I am not going to get into Pascal's Theory or whatever it's called, but I will say that if Christianity is true, you have everything to lose, whereas if atheism is true, I have nothing to lose. Considering those facts, don't you think you should investigate at least to your best ability, or to your heart's satisfaction at least?

MrWonder

2010-05-07 12:21 PM

ChristyR
Denton, TX
Posts: 197

I agree that is better to keep an open mind... but I am just on the other side of the argument. I believe that it is better to live for yourself until there is overwhelming evidence that proves that there is a God, instead of it being the other way around.

Pascal's wager doesn't really make sense to me. In my mind, this is the only life that you have. So living by a certain code because there is chance that there might be a God isn't a good strategy to me.

...Also, according to what you said earlier.... If I was a Christian for the fear of not going to hell, and not because it was i truly believed.... wouldn't that make me an imposter? Not a real Christian at all? .... and as such, have the same implications as being a non-believer? ... curious about your thoughts on that.

I should make it clear that for all intensive purposes, I have Christian morals. I was raised Christian. I believe that you shouldn't lie, steal, cheat, or murder. I just believe that you should steer clear of those things because it's the right thing to do, not because you are scared that you will burn in hell for eternity if you do.

I've had people tell me that if they didn't have religion, they would be horrible people. I do not understand that thought at all.

2010-05-07 12:41 PM

MrWonder
Medium City, TX
Posts: 226

Hi Christy,

You wrote, "So living by a certain code because there is chance that there might be a God isn't a good strategy to me."

I agree. It wouldn't work anyway. What I was proposing was not that you live by a certain code but that you would consider the possibility of God's existence and the ramifications of it as concerning you, individually. Not that you live by a code on the chance of somehow pleasing Him when you weren't even sure you believed in Him.

You wrote,

"...Also, according to what you said earlier.... If I was a Christian for the fear of not going to hell, and not because it was i truly believed.... wouldn't that make me an imposter? Not a real Christian at all? .... and as such, have the same implications as being a non-believer? ... curious about your thoughts on that."

You are exactly right. If I may for a moment presuppose the existence of the God revealed in the Bible, then according to the Bible, He cannot be fooled. In fact, the Bible says, "He that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him", so you are right - it would not work. Again, I am not advocating that. I am advocating checking out what God has to say, especially in the New Testament, and seeing if it speaks to your heart. At least you would have then given it the chance to resonate with you. You might consider some historical evidence also, such as archaeology. For your knowledge, the Bible is 66 books, not just one, written by 40 different authors over 1500 years, including three languages, and written on three continents, and yet when put together, it is a cohesive whole. Pretty remarkable.

"I should make it clear that for all intensive purposes, I have Christian morals. I was raised Christian. I believe that you shouldn't lie, steal, cheat, or murder. I just believe that you should steer clear of those things because it's the right thing to do, not because you are scared that you will burn in hell for eternity if you do."

But why is it "right"? How did that innate sense of right and wrong get into us? The Bible presents the idea that God put it in us. If there is no God, why do we even have such concepts as right and wrong? In fact, that is the movement sweeping the world today - what's right for me is wrong for you and vice-versa. What do you think?

"I've had people tell me that if they didn't have religion, they would be horrible people. I do not understand that thought at all."

I don't understand it either, Christy, unless they are trying to say they found the strength to do what is right through their faith in God - that without Him, they would feel powerless to do the right thing. That I would understand.

If, however, they are saying they still want to do horrible things, but their "religion" stops them, then it sounds as if their heart is completely unchanged. I think they probably mean the paragraph above - that without supernatural strength, they just could not do right in themselves. That I understand and am in agreement with, if we fine-tune it enough. Sure, anyone can do the "biggies" - any person should be able to keep himself or herself from murder, rape, robbery - things like that. I think they may be referring more to every day life and the issues of the heart from which these "big" issues spring.

MrWonder

2010-05-07 01:36 PM

ChristyR
Denton, TX
Posts: 197

I have "felt" God before. When I was a teenager I was a very strong Christian. I went to church several times a week and went to camps and revivals... the whole nine yards. I felt the weakening of the heart while singing praise at the top of my lungs. At the time, I would have argued till i was blue that I felt God inside me. Now, I see it as more of a chemical reaction. If your brain believes something to be true, it manifests itself accordingly.

As for your question as to what make things "right"... I agree with the fact that most people derie their standard of wrong and right from religion. It's been the social standard for so long that it's just ingrained into everyday life. My main concept of wrong and right is the thought of hurting somenoe else. I don't want to do ANYTHING that harms another person, or takes away from their quality of life. Does that make sense?

I know that all people don't think the same... so I believe religion is a GREAT resource for setting social guidelines.

Need to restart. Be back soon.

2010-05-07 01:44 PM

MrWonder
Medium City, TX
Posts: 226

Hi Christy,

Thank you for sharing a very interesting post. You wrote, "If your brain believes something to be true, it manifests itself accordingly."

Hmm. So why do I think I'm so handsome but when I see a photo of myself, it doesn't manifest what I think in my head? :-)

Back to what we think is right, have you noticed that even little children have a sense of fairness about them? Right and wrong? And yet they know nothing of religion? How do they get that innate sense if God did not put it into them (what we call "conscience")?

You are indeed a very kind person, I can see that. And I can see you're thinking things through. That's a good thing. I had to think some things through, myself. Today, I am satisfied the Bible is the true revelation of the actual God.

It is a joy to be able to converse with you on the subject. I am accustomed to being on a very rude site, where people enjoy being mean to each other better than anything else on earth, it seems. The people here are a great change of atmosphere. Thanks for being one of them.

MrWonder

2010-05-07 03:05 PM

ChristyR
Denton, TX
Posts: 197

:) Confidence is sexy ... So, it kind of does.

As a mother of a 3 year old little girl.... I can say that children adapt quickly. They learn from their surroundings and from influential figures in their life and act accordingly. .... Well, sometimes. I can't even tell you how many times I have said the words "Don't do that! That's not nice!" since she's been around. :)

I love to talk about religion. It is very refreshing to find someone on the opposite end of the conversation who doesn't just get offended and storm off, or dismiss my beliefs as unimportant or irrelevent.

I am glad we have been talking :)

2010-05-07 07:13 PM

MrWonder
Medium City, TX
Posts: 226

Hi Christy,

Well, my mirror IS kind of fickle. Some days it tells me I'm looking pretty good, and then there are those bad hair days, you know? :-)

I enjoy religious discussions too. And reading. I have so many books. I love to read them and when I'm reading something that really CLICKS inside me with something I've studied in Scripture, there is that AHA! moment that I enjoy.

It feels the same way on this end of the conversation - it's very enjoyable and I have no desire to offend you or anyone else. I like to understand what others believe and why they believe it, and I like to be able to share in return what I believe and why. There is no reason for us to become angry or storm off.

I believe God cares about your beliefs too, and it would be foolish of me to denigrate another human being when I'm just a human myself. Somebody said, "I'm just a beggar who found some food and wants to share it." I like that. Why can't we love people, even through a computer? If we take anything to heaven with us, it will be people. May as well love them now.

MrWonder

2010-05-07 07:14 PM

MrWonder
Medium City, TX
Posts: 226

P.S. Three-year olds are the most precious age. Three and four and five are just such perfect ages. The children are still innocent and you just can't keep from smiling! I love children.